As a comic book reporter, I get the opportunity to speak with many different creators. Today, I’m honored to interview Larry Fuller, an important figure in underground comix history.
Larry created Ebon, a pioneering Black superhero comic published by the San Francisco Comic Book Company in 1970. Written, penciled, inked, and lettered by Fuller, Ebon is often cited as the first comic entirely written and drawn by a single Black creator and remains an important milestone in Black comics history.
Ebon began Fuller’s journey into the San Francisco underground comix scene, where he worked with creators including Grass Green and his longtime friend and collaborator Raye Horne, also known as Wiley Spade.
Larry is also known for sharp social and political satire in his later comix. He was kind enough to provide artwork ranging from his earlier career to the work he was creating when we conducted this interview.
Joeseph Simon
You are the creator of Ebon, often cited as the first comic entirely written and drawn by a single Black creator. It was also your first published comic.
Most references date Ebon #1 to January 1970, although I’ve seen indications that it may actually have been printed in December 1969. Do you remember when it was printed and when it was released? How did Spearhead Comics and the San Francisco Comic Book Company fit into its publication history? And when did you begin creating Ebon?
Larry Fuller
I think it was December 1969 when it was printed, though likely there was no “press” until January 1970, such as it was. Spearhead Comics was the brand name I made up. I thought it looked pretty cool. Gary put his stamp on it as San Francisco Comic Book Company and that was fine by me. Don’t tell anybody, but we smoked a lot of good weed in and around our comic activities.
Joeseph:
Gary Arlington, who ran the San Francisco Comic Book Company, was a central figure in San Francisco’s underground comix scene. How did you meet him?
Larry:
I saw his store from a Muni bus one day en route home from work and decided to visit. Such visits went on for about 40 years. The first time I went there I met Crumb but didn’t know who he was then. Over the following years, I met a bunch of comics/comix luminaries, even a few very bright ones. Gary and I became and remained friends until he passed away some years ago.
Joeseph:
You created Ebon in part as an homage to the comics you loved, and you’ve openly discussed swiping poses from artists such as Gil Kane and John Buscema while putting the book together. What were you reading at the time, in comics and beyond?
Larry:
Yes, I made liberal use of swipes. Hell, I did the whole thing on tracing paper. I wanted my next artist to have a visual reference and not just have to listen to me ranting about how and what I wanted done. I have read some places that I went to art school so I could draw it. I did use my GI bill to attend the SF Academy of Art, but that was 2-3 years later when I had seriously gotten the drawing bug after meeting and being tutored by my subsequent long time “partner in crime” Raye Horne, aka Wiley Spade. In fact, Gary Arlington introduced us.
He was in homage I guess you could say, but I wanted a Black superhero. As much money as I spent on comics, superheroes, in particular, I felt I was owed, especially when I saw so many people making their own comics, subject matter notwithstanding.
I read a lot of stuff – comics, classics, plenty of science fiction, philosophy, all kinds of stuff by Black writers, murder mysteries, whatever struck my fancy – still do – one of my life’s greatest pleasures. In fact, I had a thing I used to do whenever I went to the SF Public Library: Whatever the first book I encountered at a table in the reading room was, I would check it out. I preferred mostly fiction, but that habit leads to alternately many great surprises, some deadly boring things, and sometimes stark revelations, often of stuff I never suspected. One skill I learned, which I practice to this day, is how to read and absorb stuff in which I have little to no interest. This has come in very handy just being a Realtor I tell you.
I had had the idea of Ebon for a while and eventually found an artist. He was good, but lost interest after a while, being more of a painter, and probably tired of me railing about this great hero I had created. That was decades before Internet and a lot of rubber had to hit the road to do things like you and I are doing now: communicating from afar. Ha! I’m typing this with a stylus on my phone. At any rate, unable to find another, I put the book together myself, strictly as guidance for when I found another one. In fact, I had hopes that Gary would use it to find one. Instead, he published it. Needless to say, I was shocked as well as both pleased and dismayed that he did that, but he was in the business and knew more about such things than I did.
Joeseph:
Did you have any sense at the time that Ebon might eventually become historically significant?
Larry:
I might have hoped that, but didn’t feel much like that at the time. I was only 25 and not much interested in the “history of the future.” Plus I had a wife and kid, with one on the way, and worked full time. Creating that book was an exercise in cramming it all in when I could.
Joeseph:
Ebon predates the blaxploitation boom that followed in the early 1970s. Was avoiding stereotyped slang or other conventions a conscious choice when you created him?
Larry:
IIRC, the Blaxploitation “craze” or phase may have come along slightly after that. There was only one issue published that had to be put together by a then “non-artist” – me – who had never done
anything like that. I did not feel then that I needed to do much if any, overtly stereotypical stuff if I correctly understand the question. Plus, most of the Black folks I knew then, or now, did not/do not conform to what some might deem “other peoples’ expectations” of what all/any/most Black people should or do sound like. No offense taken at the question though. I would say, though, that some such elements did make their way into some of our later efforts, notably White Whore Funnies – but that was clearly by design or as some have said provocation.
Joeseph:
If Ebon had been more successful, where might the series have gone?
Larry:
Who knows? Had sales warranted, I felt I was prepared to do several more issues – with appropriate artist support. Raye Horne had come along a while after it and we did do considerable further workups of Ebon and other denizens of his universe. At that time we had no concept of self-publishing, and Gary had no interest in continuing Ebon due to its abysmal sales. We spent the next few years polishing our skills and doing our thing: buying and collecting comics of all sorts. Also, my first marriage had ended and I spent a good deal of energy on my social life. It was a tough life, but somebody had to do it.
Joeseph:
Is there any chance of seeing a new printing of Ebon?
I would certainly buy one, and I suspect far more than the original hundred-copy print run could find an audience today. There is considerable interest in the history of Black-created comics, both in the United States and internationally. I have an award-winning poet friend in South Africa, among others, who I think would be interested as well.
Larry:
Wow! That sounds great. I’d love to hear more about the poet and the others. I think the position of Ebon in the Black created comic timeline does give it a certain gravitas. Serious collectors have
certainly given it added weight as well. In retrospect, though I think he might need to be rebuilt from the ground up. I feel it was very derivative of the typical superhero genre. At the time I had a real fire in the belly to get it done, and I always felt having to do it all might have been a bit too much for the very inexperienced creator I was at that time. Now, while not having pinpointed exactly what he would be like, I do know it would be much less of the typical hero and bad guys, cops and robbers, etc., but would certainly need fine-tuning so as to have enough action, but also much less of the standard hero/villain predictability.
I do not think though that Ebon may necessarily be done for good, but that’s all I can say. Might be a nice thought though.
Joeseph:
Your name is often mentioned alongside creators such as Grass Green, Guy Colwell, and Raye Horne/Wiley Spade. What were your actual relationships with each of them, and how do you view their impact on comics?
Larry:
Raye Horne/Wiley Spade are the same individual. He was only 50 when he died in 1995. He was my closest comic book friend for about 24 years. We fell out a good deal too – often creative differences, work practices, goals, a girl once, etc., but we always patched things up. He has a page on Lambiek for more info under Raye Horne. There wouldn’t have been as much of a me without him.
Guy Colwell is someone I never had the pleasure of meeting – or working with – but I really, really admire his work – always thought he was on “another level.” Frankly I feel honored being mentioned in the same paragraph with him.
Enough people in comics, most especially younger Black ones, have expressed to me how they felt knowing something about me and appreciation of at least some of my works, many of which are clearly not for everybody, that I feel absolutely honored to be so regarded. It is indeed nice to be appreciated, but I never really saw myself as having much of an “impact on comics.” I tried hard but never quite got to where I wanted to get – self-sustainable comics creation and publishing – but at some point, I completely decided to enjoy the ride, so I did. There were things I did right and things I did wrong, but I always took my best shot, even when missing the mark.
I also have to say that the current comics landscape is filled to overflowing with lots of bright shining talent that I feel incredibly lucky to have been blessed to witness – with much more arriving, on
a daily basis it seems. So I guess, if I was responsible for even an iota of that, maybe I did have some kind of an impact, and I’ll take it.
Joeseph:
You’ve talked about Raye and Guy. Grass Green is another major figure in this history, and you actually collaborated with him over several years. How do you remember Grass and the work you did together?
Larry:
Grass Green and I did work for each other’s comics over several years but never met in person. I think I first got in touch with him when I ordered a book from him, possibly through Comics Buyers Guide, if you remember that. We became good friends and long-distance collaborators. Grass was much more known than I. There was enough work for a book about a wild girl named Lolly in the woods that I inked for him. It was to be a two-parter, but he died sending me the second part’s art or publishing the first part, and I don’t know what became of it. One of my favorite things I did for him was a 4-page story called “Save the World” that ran in the November 1998 issue of Scary Monsters Magazine. I also inked his Fantagraphics one-shot “The Decorator”, the origin story, as well as most of at least 2 of his other titles, one being Horny Comix, and I forget the other’s name right now. He did the cover story for my White Whore Funnies #3 in 1979/80 IIRC.
Joeseph:
You’ve said that working for Marvel or DC was once an ambition. Did you or Raye ever approach either company? Or did self-publishing and the more adult-oriented underground scene ultimately become your path instead?
Larry:
Working at Marvel and/or DC could be classified as a pipe dream. Raye and I never made any approaches to “the big two.” Some artists who did work for me did and some of them had good rides. Self-publishing is a hands-on thing and I was entirely self-funded. Often I lived “like a monk” and worked two jobs, in addition to CONSTANT visiting, calling, and writing whoever might want to stock my comics. Raye’s entire life was comics and his art, to which he was entirely dedicated, consistently practicing to get better, and he spent all his extra money collecting and visiting comic book stores and cons.
Joeseph:
Ebon was printed in black and white with yellow spot color and in a larger format than the average comic. How were those production choices made? Did you have much involvement in the printing and design decisions?
Larry:
The printing format was entirely determined by Gary Arlington and possibly the printer, the great Don Donahue, a real legend in the underground, though I do recall telling them I wanted a yellow moon. At that time I had little to no knowledge of printing technology.
Joeseph:
You served in the Air Force. Did you ever encounter PS, The Preventive Maintenance Monthly, which featured Will Eisner’s work?
Larry:
I can’t say that I did, but might have. I was writing scenarios for years, having no idea anything would ever come of that.
Joeseph:
One of your next published stories was a Lovecraft adaptation. How did you go from Ebon to Lovecraft?
Larry:
That book was all about interpretations of Lovecraft stories and that was the one I got. Rory Hayes worked at Gary’s and was a good buddy. He edited that book, Laugh in the Dark, and asked if I wanted to have a page in it. Of course, I said Hell, yeah!
Joeseph:
Was Lovecraft a particular interest of yours? What other prose writers were you reading?
Larry:
I was heavy into people like Dickens, Steinbeck, James Baldwin, Evelyn Waugh, REH, ERB, Heinlein(!), Arthur C. Clarke, Maugham, and many more, and I also read a lot of paperback slush like Carter Brown, Shell Scott, The Executioner, Mickey Spillane, you name it, but I don’t know how/if/what effect many of them had on me re Ebon, aside from possibly AE Van Vogt’s Slan and maybe Heinlein’s Methuselah’s Children – a great main character named Lazarus Long.
Joeseph:
Did you ever get into Samuel R. Delany?
Larry:
I have read some Delany, but just what escapes me right now.
Joeseph
You’re known not only for Ebon, but also for later comix that used sharp social and political satire. How did that side of your work develop?
Larry:
Once it had become clear to Raye and me that we needed to something with a lot of sex in it to get some sales, we picked something somewhat pertinent to us, even if we didn’t necessarily think so: White women and Black men. That was White Whore Funnies #1. We decided to poke fun at everybody. It doesn’t pull many punches in that particular arena. A porn magazine shop owner friend of Raye told us to make the people screwing look good and the rest would take care of itself. That was good advice; we sold a good deal of product in local porn shops. We created two personas, he as Wiley Spade and me as A. Christian Black. I have seen where I’ve been listed as A. Christian White, but that is a mistake someone made that keeps getting perpetuated.
Joeseph:
Looking back, what advice would you give someone who wants to do something genuinely different in comics—something personal that may not resemble what other creators are doing or what readers expect?
Larry:
I say do what you want to do to the best of your ability. If it pleases them, that’ll be nice and hopefully profitable. If it pleases you, well so much the better, profitable or not.
Make sure you realize how labor-intensive an activity comics creation is, and while the range of possibilities is practically unending, probabilities not quite so much. One thing I’ve realized is that there are many, many levels of reaction, response, and appreciation, which I guess is good, even when not always favorable.
Joeseph:
Did you read Shatter or any of the other early experiments in creating comics with computers?
Larry:
I vaguely remember Shatter. Was that First Comics? The 80s. Very pixelated IIRC, and may have been done on a Commodore 64/128. I did some x-rated stories on a Commodore 64 and later its “big brother” the Amiga. I had a 1000 and a 2000. I made about a 2-month run of a daily format black action hero strip called The Best Man on the Amiga using a 3D program called Imagine and a bitmap program Deluxe Paint – a whole lot of work – and with my then consummate computer skills all by myself, I managed to inadvertently totally delete all that stuff before publishing online, with only ONE PANEL surviving. Ha!
Joeseph:
You’ve worked both traditionally and digitally, including with 3D tools. How has using computers changed the way you create art?
Larry:
Over the last several years I have gone largely digital – got into a bunch of things: Paint Shop Pro, Photoshop, Illustrator, Imagine 3D (oldie but goody ported to Windows from Amiga), After Effects, Poser, Daz Studio, Inkscape and many others, mostly for my own amusement. There are good ways to do comics with many of them. I do still just “draw”, but mostly small things.
About 20 years ago my wife and I became hard-core Argentine tango addicts, and this has “saved” us in so many ways. Even though there is currently no social tango – or other dances due to the pandemic – we still dance in the kitchen 3 or 4 nights a week, as we have for years. This has satisfied a great deal of my still rampant artistic yearnings and is something extremely gratifying that we do together.
In one regard the pandemic has been very good for me: The last few months I have done more drawing and creating than in the last several years combined. I always would think “real life” got in the way, but the way things have shaken out lately, I’ve gotten to do practically what I want, which is sit around a lot and make up stuff.
Joeseph
What did you think of the early adventures of Black Panther, the Falcon, and Luke Cage/Power Man?
Larry:
I love all those characters, even some with obvious imperfections. I love that they exist and the audiences they reach, as well as the veritable multitude of Black indies that are very visible these days. Altogether the different facets of the overall Black comics universe continue to put consumers of all stripes on notice as to just how much richness it contains. That, IMHO, is a very good thing.
Thank you, Larry.
Larry Fuller’s work—from Ebon through underground comix, publishing, satire, and later digital experimentation—occupies an important place in comics history.
When Ebon appeared in 1970, opportunities for Black creators to write, draw, publish, and distribute their own comics were far more limited than they are today. Fuller, Grass Green, Raye Horne, and other pioneering creators helped expand what was possible, and their work deserves continued attention.
I look forward to seeing what Larry creates next.
For more on Larry:
http://webs.lanset.com/lfuller/
http://everynightoftheweek.com
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